Episode 40: How To Really Enjoy Your Business Transcript

Business For Superheroes Podcast Transcription: Episode Forty: How To Really Enjoy Your Business

BfS*In an industry stuffed with marketing bullshit, empty promises and shiny-suited liars, one woman’s had enough. She knows what it’s like to have the wrong clients, no money and no time for fun, but she also knows how to fix it, and, on the Business For Superheroes Show, she promises to tell the down and dirty truth about business, sales and running away with the circus! Here’s your host: Vicky Fraser…*


Vicky: Hello and welcome to the Business For Superheroes Show. I’m Vicky Fraser and today I am not joined by Joe, I am joined by Sean D’Souza from Psychotactics. I am a really big fan of everything that Sean and Renuka do at Psychotactics, I’m really excited to have you on the show. The reason I am interviewing Sean today is because he lives his life the way he wants to. There totally is an alternative to the constant hustling and crushing it that you see on Facebook, and I don’t know about you guys but it kind of makes me throw up a little bit in my mouth. So, this is why I wanted to talk to somebody who can show us that there is a different way out there. So, hi Sean, thanks very much for joining us on the show, it’s really cool to have you here.

Sean: Hello! I’m enjoying being here because, as I said before, this is my first decent Skype call in ages. That’s great.

Vicky: Excellent and I’m quite chuffed that it seems to be a decent Skype call for me too because, as everyone knows, I have terrible broadband. Okay, so I don’t know how much my guys know about you – they’re going to know something because I do talk about you but let’s dive in a little bit as to who you are. You’re in New Zealand, right? But that’s not where you’re from, so can you tell us a bit about where you’re from?

Sean: I’m from Mumbai, India and I moved to New Zealand about 16 years ago. It was great growing up in India, it taught you so many languages, so many different cultures, sub-cultures, different types of food. But it was very noisy for me, too crowded. Some people love it. Some people move from the UK to India and they don’t want to move anywhere else, but I wanted to move to a place that was half city and half country, and Auckland was pretty much it. It’s got busier here, everything changes, but I don’t want to sound like an old person right now!

Vicky: Well I moved to the middle of nowhere not so long ago, so we can sound old together, that’s fine. Okay, so what took you to New Zealand? It’s a long way from Mumbai. How did you get there? What took you there?

Sean: I’m a big fan of following where life takes you. I didn’t expect to get to New Zealand, I just knew that I wanted to leave Mumbai. I wanted to get out and go, maybe to the south of India to Bangalore, but that didn’t turn out because Bangalore got as crowded and as noisy as Mumbai. At least Mumbai has the sea, so you have pollution but it blows out to sea. Bangalore doesn’t have that option. I looked at different places. I looked at Canada, I looked at Australia. I didn’t consider any other places. Canada would have been very cool because I was a cartoonist back then and I went to the communion embassy – and I don’t know if this is all a dream but bear with me! I went there and they asked me to fill in a form, and this is in the days before the internet, and on the form it said, “Cartoonist” and I thought, “Wow, this is a country that recognises cartooning as a skill, as a profession”. And then they had between 4 to 6,000 categories. Now, that’s why I think it was a dream because–

Vicky: It does sound like it might be a dream.

Sean: I’m pretty sure I filled in something. It made an impression on me. But I just didn’t go ahead with it. There’s so many things in life where you come to the edge of it and you just need a push. The thing with New Zealand was I got a push. I had met with a lawyer, the lawyer said, “No, you’re not making the points” and then several years later I was walking down the street and met a friend of mine – her name was Joan – and she just asked me a casual question, “What are you doing here?” and I said, “I’m buying groceries”. And she said, “No, what are you doing in India?” and I said, “Where am I supposed to be?” And she said, “New Zealand”. I said, “What makes you say that? And she said, “Oh you were trying to get there weren’t you?”, I said, “Yeah but it fell through”. She said, “You should try it now”. And nine months later, New Zealand.

Vicky: That’s very cool. So how long have you been there now?

Sean: 16 years.

Vicky: 16 years. It’s pretty much home then, I guess?

Sean: Well, I think it’s very hard to classify it, especially when you move countries and cultures and everything. But I loved it from the first day I was here. Having said that, when I go back to India – which is very rarely – I still feel very deep roots there because of the stuff that I learned as a kid and as a young adult. There’s no way, if there’s a game on between India and New Zealand, I’m going to support India – that’s for sure. It’s almost like family and friends, you know? You have family and you like them but your friends are the ones you choose. New Zealand is the friend and India is family.

Vicky: That’s a cool way of looking at it. So, how have you found that being part of these different cultures has influenced your business and the way that you’ve developed Psychotactics?

Sean: The thing with India is that it has a very deep-rooted philosophy and one of the things that you run into – among thousands of other things – is this concept of– There are lots of religions there and I grew up Catholic but in the Hindu religion there are two goddesses – one is called Lakshmi and the other one is called Saraswati. Lakshmi is the goddess of wealth and Saraswati is the goddess of learning. It says that if you follow Lakshmi, she’s fickle. She’s the goddess of wealth, she’s with you one day and she’s gone the next. But if you follow Saraswati, she’s the goddess of learning. She’s faithful to you for the rest of your life. Then Lakshmi gets so jealous that she follows you as well. So, there is all this philosophy, there is all this stuff that I don’t know whether other countries, newer countries – countries that have existed for 200 or 300 years – I don’t think there’s a competition but it’s much harder to have this philosophy growing. It’s almost like the environment, you don’t know that it’s there but it fills your being. And I think I had to grow a lot before I figured out that it played an important role in making me who I am, which is not necessarily who everybody wants you to be.

Vicky: Absolutely.

Sean: See, I’m speaking like a philosopher now.

Vicky: No, not at all. I mean, that makes perfect sense because one of the things that I’ve noticed proliferating on the internet – probably just because the internet is like an echo chamber really – is that there’s a lot of “Me too”, which I think is because people are thinking “That’s what these other, so-called successful people are doing. I need to be like that and I need to be like this”, and actually I love the idea that if you just pursue learning -like you’ve said – that wealth will follow, if that’s what you want. I love that philosophy, and that kind of leads me neatly on to my next question, which is “What does success mean for you?” it’s clearly not what some people would think. It’s not the millions of quid in the bank account. So what does success mean for you?

Sean: If you’d asked me this question several years ago, I would have answered it a different way. I used to say, “Success is a stepping stone” and what I meant by that was that you get successful and then you get bored, and then you have to do something else. That’s the way I used to look at it. Recently I watched a series about chefs, it’s on Netflix I think, Chef’s Table. And there was a guy from Mexico and he defined success – which I like a lot better than my definition – he said that “Success is pride in your daily work”. To me, I think, that’s my definition of success today. That’s what I’ve adopted. I want to do an outstanding whatever I am doing today. I might go for a coffee and just want to be having an outstanding coffee.

But a better question would be, “What is not success?” And what is not success is building up dollars in the bank, having endless fame, having all the stuff that you’re told you’re supposed to have just to be successful. I think that there are a few people who measure their worth – they put these counters on their website and it tells you how much money they earned that month. To me that’s very crass. Yes, I know you’re trying to empower somebody else but it’s very crass. Everytime someone tells you that they have earned a million dollars, the whole purpose of them telling you that is to make you feel like crap. That’s it, there is no other way to look at it. It’s not like they’re saying, “Okay, I’ve earned a million dollars, now I’m sending out a cheque to you as your contribution to being a client”.

We’ve made a very good living and my wife, Renuka, always tells me to put in this little PS because I talk as if we’re just living off the grid or something. We live a very good life, we fly business class, I just bought an electric car. I do the things I want to do, to me success is – I mean we take three months off every year. Our podcast is called a three month vacation for that reason. To me success is doing the stuff, writing the books that I want to write – I don’t care what keywords people are looking for, I write the books that I want to write. I do the workshops I want to do, on topics that people will not touch. They won’t touch it because it doesn’t show up in some keyword search, or their clients don’t ask for it. But for me, it’s like, “This is what I want to do”. Today, for the whole of this month, I’m mostly working on the new Psychotactics website, which is a lot of fun. You’ll see when it comes out in November.

Vicky: Yeah, I’m looking forward to that. That’s going to be great. So, you say that you live a very nice life now, and you have everything that you want and need – which is very cool. So, how did you grow your business to the point where you got there? Because presumably there’s a certain amount of falling over and picking yourself back up, and finding out what works. So how did you get your business to the point where you’ve got enough customers and you’re happy with what you’re doing?

Sean: I think the secret, if you want to call it a secret, has been that we’ve never been in a hurry. We’ve never been in a hurry, and any time we’ve been in a hurry, someone has told us not to be in a hurry. I wrote The Brain Audit in 2002, we probably sold more copies of The Brain Audit this year than we did in all of the last 14 years. It’s been a very slow update. It’s not like we haven’t sold a lot of copies, The Brain Audit sells off the website at $9.99 and it goes all the way up to $39.99 but the point is that people were buying this a long time ago, they just weren’t buying it in the numbers. They suddenly decide to buy it and we’re okay with that. The goal has never been, “Let’s sell 100,000 books” or, “Let’s sell 50,000”. What we’ve actually done is quite the opposite, so for instance, I rewrote the article writing course and we created a home-study. From now on we’re deciding to sell just 25 copies every time we release it. 25 copies, it’s about $1000 a copy, that’s $25,000. Most people would say, “Well, sell 100 copies. Sell 1000 copies” it doesn’t interest us.

Vicky: Okay, tell me a bit more about that, then. Like you say, a lot of people would be like, “If you’re selling 25 copies at $1000 a copy, why on earth would you not sell more?” I know that that’s the way you work because I’ve done your storytelling course, which was awesome. So, what sets your products apart from other peoples? Why do you do it like that?

Sean: So, what sets the products apart and why we follow a strategy like this are two different questions. I’ll answer both of them. What sets the products apart is that I don’t create anything for anybody. I create everything for myself. When I write the course, or I rewrite the course, it is for my own – I wouldn’t use the word amusement, but it’s for my own “How much have I improved at this”. It’s like making a dish. Not everyone is into cooking but I like cooking, I like painting, I like doing stuff. The next time I do it, I want to see how much i’ve improved, how much more I can bring to the table. That’s precisely the goal. I treat my courses, workshops, books, everything, like software. This is Version 1, let me see how much better we can make it, how much more of a result we can create in Version 2. Then later on, we’ll do Version 3. I think that the best definition is in a song by Sting. It’s about a card player and the lyrics are, “He doesn’t play for money, he doesn’t play for respect, he plays to find the answers”. I think that’s the goal. The fact that someone has written that song and performed it, means that there are people out there that aren’t doing it for money, or respect, or whatever.

It’s like when you listen to what Paul Simon does, Paul Simon doesn’t need an audience – I mean he could just say, “I’m going to sing The Boxer” and 10,000 people would show up but he’s just past 70 and he’s still improving, trying to find the answers. For us it’s been good because when we started out, we weren’t earning a lot of money, and we didn’t try to earn a lot of money. What we tried to do was cover the mortgage. We tried to cover our expenses. We had a very fixed budget, and we went that way for at least a couple of years, where we were just covering our expenses. We weren’t trying to get rich, we weren’t trying to do anything like that. This is not a modest story, we ended up buying three houses in five years. Those houses have appreciated 300/400%. We’re multi-millionaires by accident. But even in the business, it’s been very successful but very slowly successful, rather than this big hurry.

When we started out in 2002 – and The Brain Audit was doing quite well – I had friends who were not just on (at that time Amazon bestseller lists were nothing). 2002 you barely had PDFs and everyone had to be on Wall Street Journal bestseller lists and New York Times bestseller lists, and I had friends who had done that so I knew what it took. Essentially it took between three to six months of your life. You had to go to all the radio stations, you had to be on TV stations and you had to do publicity, and it cost you half a million dollars. And we started out this membership site – 5000BC and one of my goal was, “I want to make The Brain Audit a bestseller” This guy from Canada, which is strangely like New Zealand, said, “But why?” And I didn’t know the answer to the question, so I dropped it. And to this day, it’s not a bestseller. People say, “Why?” I don’t know. I’m not willing to give up six months of my life to make twice the income. I already have good life.

Vicky: Exactly and I think that’s really interesting. That’s part of the reason that I was drawn to Psychotactics, I think, because you are a breath of fresh air in a world that’s obsessed with immediacy. I think that’s the thing that people miss, that actually it takes quite a long time to build up the kind of business that you’ve got because you’ve been in it for so long – I say so long in terms of the online world. I love that. You’ll have to excuse me one second so that I can let my cat out. That’s Noodle the podcat, he’s usually not quite that talkative. Okay, like I say that’s what drew me to Psychotactics and I think one of the reasons I really enjoyed the storytelling course was because it’s obvious that you’ve put so much care and effort into making it better and better every time. I think the world would be a better place if a lot more people did that, for a start. But I think there’s also, people don’t necessarily know how to make things better these days. Could you tell us a bit about how you make your courses better? What is is that you do?

Sean: So, a lot of it comes from what I read and what I’ve learned over the years. Inherently I don’t believe in inborn talent. I know that genetics play its role and we can go into a lot of blah blah about it back and forth – it’s almost like Global Warming for most people. But I believe that if I get to learn how to make pasta today, then if I found the right teacher and they had a good system I would learn how to make a really good pasta. What I do is, I go about trying to find the right teachers. These teachers might be in a book, they might be in a course, they might be in a seminar, but they’re also very diverse. A lot of people become very focused on just reading about marketing, or just reading about sales. I read about philosophy and garage doors, and volcanoes and everything. All of these cross-pollinate to form your own, unique way of thinking. When people talk about a style, essentially a style is copying – you’re copying someone’s work. Just like you copy an accent, that’s why we all have accents. Then, when you run into various accents, all those accents meld into something that you call your own. Your accent is completely different from everybody else’s accent on the planet. It’s just slightly different. Your parents’ accents will be different, and your friends’ accents will be different.

We do this in the cartooning course. You copy one style, you copy another style, you copy a third style, you copy a fourth style, and eventually you get to the point where you have a style – but you’ll only have a style for a specific point in time. If you continue to copy stuff then your style changes and it morphs. So whether you’re a writer, a singer, or a musician, or painter, you’ll find that you don’t have what is a fixed style. The only people who have a fixed style, are the people who don’t learn anything else. That’s the first part, the first part is really that you have to be on a constant quest for learning. Not learning how to become richer and stuff, but learning for the joy of learning. Then the second part is really a factor of implementation. I am very quick on implementation. I don’t really wait for the perfect moment, that’s just me and I know that everyone is not that brave. Everyone needs some validation, some push. About 15 seconds after I’ve read something, I want to try it.

A  lot of the books – for instance, when I wrote The Brain Audit, it was only 16 pages long and we sold it for $29. We were going to events and speaking at events – local events, not big events at that time. And 30/50 people would turn up, business people and such. They didn’t have email most of them – this is back in 2002. They didn’t have email, they just had CDs many of them, and here I was selling an e-book. No one knew what an e-book was. But that’s all I had so I’d stand on the stage and I’d say, “I’ve just done this presentation, this is what the Brain Audit is about. If you would like to buy, Teneka is at the back of the room, give her a cheque and we’ll send you the e-book by email. If you don’t have email, we’ll send you a CD.” That’s it. And suddenly you would have about 40 people buying the book. Suddenly you make $800 and go, “Wow, how did that happen?” But a lot of people would wait and say, “The book’s not complete, it’s only 16 pages. Who buys a 16-page book? Who pays $29?” People pay $29, they pay hundreds of dollars. But we’re talking about 2002 when people could go to a store and buy a book for $16, a hardcopy book.

It made no sense at all, but it doesn’t have to make sense. To me, moving to New Zealand didn’t make sense. A lot of the stuff we do doesn’t have to make sense. I trust diversions, I really trust diversions. Recently we went to India, to Goa because I wanted to see my parents after 5 years. The goal was to eat, drink and sleep – that’s what we do every 12 weeks, we go for a month somewhere. But the second day we ended up at an Ayurveda centre – that’s an ancient system of healing in India, it’s about 5-10,000 years old. The doctor said, “Okay, hang on I think you need to go for a treatment”. We did some blood tests and stuff, and to most of my friends and relatives, they were like “You can do this later on. You’re going through a medical treatment, you can’t eat, you can’t drink, you can’t sleep” – well I could sleep by day, which is one of my stuff that I really like. But I trust diversions, I trust the fact that I’ve been put there for a specific reason, to  listen to whatever is happening.

The first thing is, I learn. The second thing is, I implement as quickly as I can. I don’t wait for that special moment. Then, because we treat everything like diversions, I’ll come back and fix it if I need. The third thing is that as much as I will put out this stuff, I really go after feedback. A lot of people when they say feedback, they think of testimonials, they think of, you’ve just made a great dish and everyone has to say, “Wow, this is amazing”. I love testimonials, I’ll go after testimonials, but I’ll go after feedback. After you’ve finished every course, after you finish workshops and stuff – especially after courses. We get over 10,000 words of feedback, I mean people picking holes in this and that. Some of the courses we have done for close to 10 years and you would think, “There is nothing to be fixed here” but that’s like saying, “You’ve got this iPhone and there’s nothing to be fixed there”. People come back with specific ideas that one we implement it, it becomes so much better. The book becomes better, the course becomes better. When I write a book I usually have three clients that are on my reading list. I don’t send it out to editors, I send it out to clients who are very good at editing because they come back with all these questions that I would not have thought of. In one book I wrote about the Red Moon, this one woman came back and said, “I don’t know what a red moon is”. And I’m like, “Okay, so I have to explain about a red moon. I’ll go do that now”. I would say that these are the three things that keep me going. The first is constant learning, the second is constant implementation, and the third one would be constant feedback.

Vicky: That’s really cool and that’s a really good piece – well they’re all good pieces of advice for anyone listening. Learning is just awesome. And one of my mottos is JFDI, which stands for Just *ahem*– I’m quite sweary, I don’t know why I’m not sweary on my own podcast this is ridiculous. Then the third one, like you say, is feedback. I think, actually, a lot of people find that very difficult. Like you say, they want to be told that they’re good, they want to be validated – which is very nice, but it doesn’t necessarily help you improve.

Sean: Well, it’s very frustrating, let me tell you that. I consider myself to be very good at taking feedback. I will pursue feedback. But on the day that everyone has to write their feedback – and they have to write close to a thousand words of feedback when they do a course. Are you doing the headlines course?

Vicky: No, I’m doing the cartooning course and I’m very excited about it.

Sean: Okay, so at the end of the course there is feedback and people will tell you, “This is what I should fix with the forum, this is what I should fix with the groups”. People come back with all of the stuff that technically they are expecting you to fix. Even on our website, when you go to the website, we get between 100-600 pieces of feedback every year because we have a bug on the website – it’s like a cartoon of a bug and it says, “What bugs me”. You click on it, and on the new website we’re going to start sending chocolates, and we’re going to send postcards if you give us feedback.

Vicky: And by the way, if anyone is listening who knows Psychotactics, or who wants to have a look, Sean’s postcards are well worth getting. I have the most beautiful, hand-illustrated envelope sitting on my mantelpiece, next to my wooden elephants, and it’s illustrated with an elephant. It’s just gorgeous, so it’s worth giving Sean feedback just for that, frankly. Like you say, people would do well to take more feedback, I think – and I totally include myself in that. I’m getting much better at it. It’s one of the most valuable things possible. Talk to the people who are actually using your stuff, talk to people who are better than you. Say, “How can I get better?” I don’t think enough people do that and I think that’s sad.

Sean: It’s not sad, I think it depends on how you grew up. I think that some people grow up – especially if you are a younger child, you are very sheltered. By definition, younger children are sheltered. You have two older kids, they’re given a lot of responsibility. The lower you are in the ranking, the more your parents are relaxed with you. There’s less demand and suddenly you go out into the big, bad world and everyone is saying, “You don’t look so good. You have to fix this, you have to do that”. I think it’s more a factor of what happened to you as a kid. How much feedback you got as a kid, how much responsibility you got as a kid. I’ve used the word, “Brutal feedback”, whenever I ask for feedback I ask for brutal feedback. People will come back and say, “Can you not say brutal feedback? Because it scares me.”

It scares people but the point is, the day after the feedback, or even on the day of the feedback, the only way I can cope with it is to – first of all what I do immediately is I make a list of all the things that need to be fixed, how they need to be fixed and I post it back on the feedback that the person has given themselves. It’s not like, I’m going to take the feedback and then it goes in a box and no one opens it. They get feedback on their feedback and it goes back and forth for a while until I know that I’ve got the idea that they want me to get. And then when I’ve done the feedback, I go back to the person and say, “Okay, I’ve fixed it now” and that spurs more feedback. So it becomes this unending cycle of feedback, but after a while it becomes normal. I think that the people that are afraid of the feedback, they have to somehow make it normal.

Vicky: Yeah and also recognise it as a way to get better, like you say. It’s feedback, that doesn’t mean it’s an attack or criticism. I think that it sounds like you’ve nailed the difference between those two.

Sean: Yeah, but it feels like criticism. If I’ve just spent three months with you on a course, and I’ve just gone through 10,000 posts and given it my absolute all, and now you’re telling me that I could fix things. It doesn’t seem fair but they are trying to tell you what’s wrong, they are trying to tell you what makes it better. You can’t do it in a nice way. Of course, there are people that are stupid and that’s totally different, and we don’t have them as our clients. But the point is that it’s not going to be a nice feeling, and even when they give the feedback the people are squirming. You’re squirming on one side, they’re squirming on the other side. This is not like the internet where people get on a forum and blast you, this is two people with a very healthy respect for each other that somehow have to take in the feedback.

Vicky: Quite a squirmy situation really. But a valuable one. Your success – or whatever you want to call it – is testament to that. That’s all really fascinating and I’m really, really glad I’ve got you on because a lot of what people hear and see on the internet now is – not necessarily opposite to all the stuff we’ve just been talking about, but very, very different. I think that there’s a different way of doing things, a slower way, a deeper way of doing things. That’s what I really like about what you and Renuka are doing at Psychotactics.

Sean: I’ve got a little story. Many years ago I was a big fan of Calvin and Hobbs, and then of course Bill Watterson stopped drawing the comic strip but there’s a story about the tuna sandwich. It’s about Calvin running around, around Christmas time. He says, “I’ve made a list for Santa. I want a rocket ship and I want a train, and I want this and I want that” he makes this huge list. And then he asks Hobbs, he says, “What do you want for Christmas?” and Hobbs says, “I want a tuna sandwich”. Calvin goes ballistic, he’s like “You can have all these other things. Why do you want a tuna sandwich? You’re crazy” etc. Then, the final scene is on Christmas morning. You have Calvin stomping around saying, “I’m going to sue Santa. He didn’t bring me this, and that” and Hobbs is standing there and says, “I got my tuna sandwich”. My question to people is, “Do you actually know what your tuna sandwich is?” Once you know what your tuna sandwich is, then your life is already happy, you’re already living the life that you want. When we started out, $200 a month was our tuna sandwich. We make a lot more know, we travel in a lot more comfort now, we live different lives – not better. It’s still the tuna sandwich, we know exactly what we want and it’s not this expanding thing that changes all the time.

Vicky: That’s a really good question. That’s probably a really good question for people to end on, for people to go away and think about. What’s your tuna sandwich? Why are you doing all this? That’s constantly what Joe and I are thinking about – what we want to get out of my business and his work. That’s really valuable.

Sean: I know what yours and Joe’s tuna sandwich is. To go and get that tree cutter and cut down yet another tree.

Vicky: No, we’re only cutting up the dead ones that are cutting up the path.

Sean: Okay! It always seems like you’re cutting trees on Facebook.

Vicky: I know, you know what I had a conversation with someone the other day – this had me in stitches. A photographer that’s going to do some, hopefully amazing, photos of me – I hate having my photo taken. He said, “How about we get the chainsaw out because whenever I think of you, I think of chainsaws”. I was like,excellent, that’s my legacy, I work really hard and I write stuff, and I think, and I learn, and it’s chainsaws. That’s what it is. But I’m okay with that. It made me laugh. Sean, what’s next for you and Psychotactics? What’s your next big idea?

Sean: I really don’t know. I’m doing stuff. We’re redoing the website – which is completely different from other websites, just the way I do my own products. It’s the way I want to build it, my own way. I’m not looking at anybody else’s websites, I’m just building a website as if you gave me a set of Lego blocks and I went and constructed my own thing. Other than that, I don’t really have – we have courses and workshops and speaking events, and all that stuff, but I’m just looking forward to enjoying the rest of the year. That’s kind of the goal for the rest of the year. That’s it.

Vicky: Cool, that’s a cool goal. And where can people find out more about you?

Sean: One of the places that they can find me is Psychotactics but they can also get a really cool report on resistance – that’s one of my favourite topics – so you can go to www.psychotactics.com/resistance and there is a nice little booklet on resistance. You’ll find that chaos is your friend and resistance is your friend, and you just have to make friends with it.

Vicky: Okay guys, go to  www.psychotactics.com/resistance  and have a look. Have a look at what Sean is all about, what Psychotactics is about and if you like what you see, join 5000BC, do one of their courses because I can tell you they are excellent, they are really excellent. This is somebody who is a big fan of Psychotactics. I did the storytelling course in Amsterdam, which I loved, and it has completely transformed the way I write, for the better – I should qualify that! And I’m about to start the cartooning course, which I’m really, super excited about. I really can’t wait to get started on that, which is next week.

Sean: You’re going to end up being a cartoonist, there is no other way. You’re going to be a cartoonist.

Vicky: I am and you know what?  This is really exciting for me as well because when I was a kid,a t school, I used to love art. I did GCSE art and even as an adult, 10 years ago I did an adult art class and really enjoyed it. I don’t really know why I stopped. I think I got it into my head that I wasn’t an artist and, like you said, I’m reading the Talent Code, as you’ve told me to do. I’m reading that and you’re totally right, talent is – aside from genetics and Michael Phelps’ giant, long arms – we can all learn to do most everything out there. I am very excited about that.

Sean: Just for the record though, Bob Bowman, his coach, is not excited by his long arms.

Vicky: Oh really?

Sean: He thinks that everyone on the Olympic stage has exactly the same characteristics.

Vicky: He’s probably right, actually. If you put him together with his Olympic competitors, he’s nothing special in terms of physique.

Sean: And even better, the guy from Singapore is a lot shorter than him, and smaller arms and smaller feet. So there you go.

Vicky: There you go. Read the Talent Code, guys. But before you do that, go to  www.psychotactics.com/resistance Next week, Joe is back and we will be talking about – following on from this – finding your voice and stepping away from the “me too” stuff that’s out there. I think that will follow on quite nicely from this. Sean this has been brilliant, thank you so much for coming on the show, I’ve really enjoyed talking to you – as always. I’m really excited about the course and I will hopefully speak to you soon.

Sean: Thank you, it was a pleasure.

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